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 LiveWire Humor
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Ju5tin
ಠ_ರೃ
Patron
Tech Support Leader
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Yes, to an extent. Not everything we do is completely selfless, nor is it completely selfish. Even on a subconscious level if we perform a selfless act, a part of us is expecting something in return.
------- I heard the best joke in the Sims today.. Ba harmy putar? BLARCH!!
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8:24 am on Nov. 17, 2011 | Joined: Mar. 2007 | Days Active: 1,251 Join to learn more about Ju5tin Saskatchewan, Canada | Straight Male | Posts: 15,016 | Points: 34,912
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( Spekki )
Dairy Product Addict
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That is my view exactly. I think that we all get something out of what we do even if it is not a physical thing. Therefore that must mean that we are doing it for ourselves even if our concious reasons are honourable. do you agree Ju5tin?
------- Note Bena
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8:31 am on Nov. 17, 2011 | Joined: Nov. 2011 | Days Active: 95 Join to learn more about Spekki England, United Kingdom | Straight Male | Posts: 133 | Points: 1,102
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Wilder
Connoisseur of Hallucination
Patron
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I feel that we all are selfish to an extent as everything we do has some benefit to us as is the meaning of selfish.
I'm not sure that this is a good definition of selfishness. The clearest image of selflessness that I can think of is the concept of ahimsa. While it is directly translated and simplistically rendered as non-harm, the core of ahimsa comes from seeing all living things as connected and always motivating one's actions on the basis of benefit to the whole, not benefit to oneself. I don't think that the fact that this almost always means taking actions that somehow benefit the individual, too, means that ahimsa is even slightly selfish. When you start with the idea of a profound connectedness of all life and move forward on the basis of benefiting all life, even if it doesn't mean maximizing personal pleasure and avoiding personal pain at all costs, you're going to take steps that are beneficial to you both indirectly (making the people in your life happier makes living with them more pleasant) and directly (taking the converse of this, by making sure that you are in a good emotional place you are in a better situation to spread positivity and not negativity). The consequence of individual benefits seems, to me, to be irrelevant to the intent of an action. Simple logic dictates that selfless actions should often yield a positive benefit to the actor, but that doesn't render them selfish.
------- In so far as the word "knowledge" has any meaning, the world is knowable; but it is interpretable otherwise, it has no meaning behind it, but countless meanings. -Nietzsche
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9:03 am on Nov. 17, 2011 | Joined: Dec. 2005 | Days Active: 1,962 Join to learn more about Wilder Colorado, United States | Gay Male | Posts: 15,116 | Points: 52,275
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( Spekki )
Dairy Product Addict
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yes but if the action is a selfish one then the reasons are subconsciously unselfish and if the action is unselfish then the reason is subconsciously selfish. that is what I mean. We can not help being selfish as our actions automatically are both selfish and unselfish. Surely everything in the world is more back-to-front than we realise and yet it is as it seems. The world is a complicated place and philosophy dictates that the world has hidden meanings amongst everything that happens.
------- Note Bena
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1:06 am on Nov. 18, 2011 | Joined: Nov. 2011 | Days Active: 95 Join to learn more about Spekki England, United Kingdom | Straight Male | Posts: 133 | Points: 1,102
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Wilder
Connoisseur of Hallucination
Patron
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yes but if the action is a selfish one then the reasons are subconsciously unselfish and if the action is unselfish then the reason is subconsciously selfish.
None of that follows logically. You just stated your conclusion without doing anything to demonstrate it.
We can not help being selfish as our actions automatically are both selfish and unselfish.
I don't think that you've demonstrated this, either. It's a problematic assertion to say that an action taken specifically without regards to oneself is selfish if there is even the tiniest sliver of a subconscious, selfish motive in the mix, and you haven't said anything to make me believe that we have to have selfish motives on at least the subconscious level. Again my primary disagreement comes down to one of definitions; it seems silly to me to say that anything which could be construed as having a benefit to the actor is necessarily selfish. If a man gives up the pursuit of material comforts and self-indulgence to dedicate his life to charity and the service of others, that doesn't strike me as a selfish act even if he knows that devoting his life to other people will make him feel good from time to time.
------- In so far as the word "knowledge" has any meaning, the world is knowable; but it is interpretable otherwise, it has no meaning behind it, but countless meanings. -Nietzsche
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12:08 pm on Nov. 19, 2011 | Joined: Dec. 2005 | Days Active: 1,962 Join to learn more about Wilder Colorado, United States | Gay Male | Posts: 15,116 | Points: 52,275
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( Spekki )
Dairy Product Addict
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Lets say that you help an old lady across the road. This is an Unselfish act but subconsciously it is selfish as you are doing it to make yourself feel better. Everything we has a selfish reason but the things we set out to get, whether we realise it or not, is not always a physical thing and is sometimes to settle some mental need we have. Whether its to feel better about ourselves or to relieve stress or even to have a bit of fun it is always there. No action is completely unselfish.
------- Note Bena
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6:05 am on Nov. 21, 2011 | Joined: Nov. 2011 | Days Active: 95 Join to learn more about Spekki England, United Kingdom | Straight Male | Posts: 133 | Points: 1,102
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Wilder
Connoisseur of Hallucination
Patron
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This is an Unselfish act but subconsciously it is selfish as you are doing it to make yourself feel better.
You're just declaring it to be so. You haven't actually done anything to demonstrate that someone can't help an old lady across the road solely to make her life easier (and perhaps longer).
------- In so far as the word "knowledge" has any meaning, the world is knowable; but it is interpretable otherwise, it has no meaning behind it, but countless meanings. -Nietzsche
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4:49 pm on Nov. 21, 2011 | Joined: Dec. 2005 | Days Active: 1,962 Join to learn more about Wilder Colorado, United States | Gay Male | Posts: 15,116 | Points: 52,275
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( Spekki )
Dairy Product Addict
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I am an explorer Leader and at explorers we do things that full fill the scout laws. it also puts us in a good light and could get us more people. It all has selfish reasons even if we dont mean it to. it is not a declaration but a statement of truth. The first scout law is a Scout is trustworthy. this includes telling the truth and thats what this is.
------- Note Bena
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5:13 am on Nov. 22, 2011 | Joined: Nov. 2011 | Days Active: 95 Join to learn more about Spekki England, United Kingdom | Straight Male | Posts: 133 | Points: 1,102
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Wilder
Connoisseur of Hallucination
Patron
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Quote: from Spekki at 6:13 am on Nov. 22, 2011
it also puts us in a good light and could get us more people. It all has selfish reasons even if we dont mean it to. it is not a declaration but a statement of truth.
This goes back to my previous point: self-benefit as a consequence of an action is not the same as and does not necessarily imply self-benefit as a motivation for an action (selfishness).
------- In so far as the word "knowledge" has any meaning, the world is knowable; but it is interpretable otherwise, it has no meaning behind it, but countless meanings. -Nietzsche
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8:29 am on Nov. 23, 2011 | Joined: Dec. 2005 | Days Active: 1,962 Join to learn more about Wilder Colorado, United States | Gay Male | Posts: 15,116 | Points: 52,275
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( Spekki )
Dairy Product Addict
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Shall we agree to disagree Wilder? even though it contradicts itself.
------- Note Bena
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3:04 am on Nov. 24, 2011 | Joined: Nov. 2011 | Days Active: 95 Join to learn more about Spekki England, United Kingdom | Straight Male | Posts: 133 | Points: 1,102
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Elm
Dairy Product Addict
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I think one needs to define "selfish" before this question can be answered.
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10:03 am on Dec. 24, 2011 | Joined: Dec. 2006 | Days Active: 860 Join to learn more about Elm Pennsylvania, United States | Posts: 12,248 | Points: 21,182
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penumbra
Wealthy Hobo
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Quote: from Wilder at 8:29 am on Nov. 23, 2011
Quote: from Spekki at 6:13 am on Nov. 22, 2011
it also puts us in a good light and could get us more people. It all has selfish reasons even if we dont mean it to. it is not a declaration but a statement of truth.
This goes back to my previous point: self-benefit as a consequence of an action is not the same as and does not necessarily imply self-benefit as a motivation for an action (selfishness). 
Self benefit solely as a consequence of an action is a logical impossibility. What was the drive for committing the action in the first place? To help someone other than yourself? What was the drive to help that someone? It's all really semantics and word definitions though. A consequence of the inescapable fact that even the most selfless act is done with personal motive which will maximize the state of being of the actor. That maximization can come in a billion forms, including the joy one feels for feeling truly selfless. My view on selfishness vs. selflessness is the degree to which one's desires/actions correlate with what brings utility to others.
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